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Jeffrey Strahl
Lockdown Times
10 hrs ago

I largely agree with what Janice Fiamengo articulated. But there were a couple of items which for me raised questions.

Full voting rights were supposedly dependent upon an obligation to serve the nation in a military capacity. EH? There was no draft in the US till the Civil War, first employed in 1863 after not enough people volunteered for military service. Thus, 15 years after Seneca. This law BTW led to widespread rioting. Conscription in the US was put on ice after the Civil War till 1917, when the US entered WWI. So i have no idea where that assertion comes from.

Full voting rights were supposedly also the province of property owners. Well, true at the time of the US Constitution, but by 1848, most states eliminated property ownership as a requirement, though some states still levied poll taxes which disenfranchised those who couldn’t afford to pay these taxes. So, not really true, but effectively access was controlled on the basis of social class.

For that matter, voting rights even today mean little, since (as designed by the writers of the Constitution), the super rich elite control all key institutions and thus possess real social power, while the state (as an institution, not talking about US states) has great limits upon its power, is and always has been the enforcement arm of the elites.

And regarding Sylvia Pankhurst claiming that men were sexually depraved louts who consorted with prostitutes and thus infected their wives with VD, i did a web search. This is the only item i found re Pankhurst and prostitution. Are you sure you tagged the right person?

https://www.marxists.org/archive/pankhurst-sylvia/communism-tactics/ch01.htm

“Prostitution will become extinct; it is a commercial transaction, dependent upon the economic need of the prostitute and the customer’s power to pay.

Sexual union will no longer be based upon material conditions, but will be freely contracted on the basis of affection and mutual attraction.”
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Eric F Coppolino
13 mins ago
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edited
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Eric F Coppolino
21 mins ago
·edited just now
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One of my takeaways from this conversation was that the campaign around the 19th Amendment falsely seeded the idea that **voting is the only meaningful thing.**

Note that prior to women having the vote, there were many forms of organizational civic involvement that were taken seriously as voices in society, and women were considered an important lobby group. One fundamental lie in the Declaration was that there was NO representation, when in fact there was considerable structured input and involvement that we either do not have today, or it’s wholly co-opted by lobbyists and PACs.

There was not, as you note, universal suffrage for men. But they make it seem like there was. That is another fundamental lie. And to this day there is NO structured input on lawmaking by men or women other than lobbyists and PACs.

I did not say it was Pankhurst by the way. The 80% and “unnatural acts with prostitutes” statement comes from the Lady Cristabell. There were a diversity of views but they center around notion that men’s sexuality was reprehensible and unacceptable (and associated with drunkenness). You would need to go through a bunch of these early feminists to see the pattern, which follows clear through “First Wave” early 20c, through “male chauvinist pig” oriented “Second Wave” (women’s lib), and right into the rape feminism and obsession with censoring “porn” of Dworkin et al.

For many hetero feminists of the more recent waves, a “sex positive” view meant that it was OK to fuck guys at night as long as we came back to men are pigs in class during the day. Many others take an approach that presumes a lesbian movement (Inga Muscio’s “all cunts belong to all women”) and the idea that “feminism is the theory and lesbianism is the practice” (a famous statement though I am not certain the author).

So there’s an idea that the only legit sex is lesbian sex.

There is a sub-movement of women- and masturbation-focused sex (toy stores, in particular, with events like Masturbation Month; Betty Dodson founds this with her workshops and Eve’s Garden to supply them). If you look closely you see that the subtext is the purity and boutique-quality of women’s sexuality and the alleged seedy perversion or at least uselessness of (hetero) men’s sexuality.

Few feminists ever meekly address the glaring fact of bisexuality, particularly male bisexuality (which is still to this day presumed to be a man passing as not-quite-gay). While Adrienne Rich has her “lesbian continuum” stolen from Kinsey, in her famous essay on the topic, she openly asks why anyone would ever want to seek affection from anyone but a woman. And I did not understand this as an anti-male bigotry until recently.

[Note: It’s critical to understand that the sexuality issue gets lost in the sauce of preexisting ubiquitous “Christian” values, and also lost in the seeming contradictions from allegedly sex-positive (and more recent allegedly pro-sex-worker) feminists. They are still defined as fulfilling a prurient need in (allegedly more powerful) men, which inherently makes them victims, even if exceedingly well paid and otherwise cared for.]

Here is the Lady Cristabell segment of FF2.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9vgW3grglc

Note that like many forbidden topics, accurate information is not generally available online. The standard narrative is locked down more so than 9/11; at least you can easily find competing views on the latter.

Fiamengo is the only one that I know pulling this information together and recovering lost history. As I mentioned in the discussion, I was given total disinfo by the guide at Seneca Falls (claiming that a woman in 1848 — at the time of the Seneca convention — did not even own her clothing if she divorced). The bald lie is that the Married Women’s Property Protection Act was passed into law in April 1848 and the convention was in July.

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Eric Francis

October 17, 2024 / 10:15 am Log in to Reply

Welcome to Chiron Return – Planet Waves FM
7 Comments
⭠ Return to thread

Jeffrey Strahl
Lockdown Times
10 hrs ago

I largely agree with what Janice Fiamengo articulated. But there were a couple of items which for me raised questions.

Full voting rights were supposedly dependent upon an obligation to serve the nation in a military capacity. EH? There was no draft in the US till the Civil War, first employed in 1863 after not enough people volunteered for military service. Thus, 15 years after Seneca. This law BTW led to widespread rioting. Conscription in the US was put on ice after the Civil War till 1917, when the US entered WWI. So i have no idea where that assertion comes from.

Full voting rights were supposedly also the province of property owners. Well, true at the time of the US Constitution, but by 1848, most states eliminated property ownership as a requirement, though some states still levied poll taxes which disenfranchised those who couldn’t afford to pay these taxes. So, not really true, but effectively access was controlled on the basis of social class.

For that matter, voting rights even today mean little, since (as designed by the writers of the Constitution), the super rich elite control all key institutions and thus possess real social power, while the state (as an institution, not talking about US states) has great limits upon its power, is and always has been the enforcement arm of the elites.

And regarding Sylvia Pankhurst claiming that men were sexually depraved louts who consorted with prostitutes and thus infected their wives with VD, i did a web search. This is the only item i found re Pankhurst and prostitution. Are you sure you tagged the right person?

https://www.marxists.org/archive/pankhurst-sylvia/communism-tactics/ch01.htm

“Prostitution will become extinct; it is a commercial transaction, dependent upon the economic need of the prostitute and the customer’s power to pay.

Sexual union will no longer be based upon material conditions, but will be freely contracted on the basis of affection and mutual attraction.”
Like (1)
Reply (2)
author
Eric F Coppolino
13 mins ago
Author

edited
author
Eric F Coppolino
21 mins ago
·edited just now
Author

One of my takeaways from this conversation was that the campaign around the 19th Amendment falsely seeded the idea that **voting is the only meaningful thing.**

Note that prior to women having the vote, there were many forms of organizational civic involvement that were taken seriously as voices in society, and women were considered an important lobby group. One fundamental lie in the Declaration was that there was NO representation, when in fact there was considerable structured input and involvement that we either do not have today, or it’s wholly co-opted by lobbyists and PACs.

There was not, as you note, universal suffrage for men. But they make it seem like there was. That is another fundamental lie. And to this day there is NO structured input on lawmaking by men or women other than lobbyists and PACs.

I did not say it was Pankhurst by the way. The 80% and “unnatural acts with prostitutes” statement comes from the Lady Cristabell. There were a diversity of views but they center around notion that men’s sexuality was reprehensible and unacceptable (and associated with drunkenness). You would need to go through a bunch of these early feminists to see the pattern, which follows clear through “First Wave” early 20c, through “male chauvinist pig” oriented “Second Wave” (women’s lib), and right into the rape feminism and obsession with censoring “porn” of Dworkin et al.

For many hetero feminists of the more recent waves, a “sex positive” view meant that it was OK to fuck guys at night as long as we came back to men are pigs in class during the day. Many others take an approach that presumes a lesbian movement (Inga Muscio’s “all cunts belong to all women”) and the idea that “feminism is the theory and lesbianism is the practice” (a famous statement though I am not certain the author).

So there’s an idea that the only legit sex is lesbian sex.

There is a sub-movement of women- and masturbation-focused sex (toy stores, in particular, with events like Masturbation Month; Betty Dodson founds this with her workshops and Eve’s Garden to supply them). If you look closely you see that the subtext is the purity and boutique-quality of women’s sexuality and the alleged seedy perversion or at least uselessness of (hetero) men’s sexuality.

Few feminists ever meekly address the glaring fact of bisexuality, particularly male bisexuality (which is still to this day presumed to be a man passing as not-quite-gay). While Adrienne Rich has her “lesbian continuum” stolen from Kinsey, in her famous essay on the topic, she openly asks why anyone would ever want to seek affection from anyone but a woman. And I did not understand this as an anti-male bigotry until recently.

[Note: It’s critical to understand that the sexuality issue gets lost in the sauce of preexisting ubiquitous “Christian” values, and also lost in the seeming contradictions from allegedly sex-positive (and more recent allegedly pro-sex-worker) feminists. They are still defined as fulfilling a prurient need in (allegedly more powerful) men, which inherently makes them victims, even if exceedingly well paid and otherwise cared for.]

Here is the Lady Cristabell segment of FF2.0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9vgW3grglc

Note that like many forbidden topics, accurate information is not generally available online. The standard narrative is locked down more so than 9/11; at least you can easily find competing views on the latter.

Fiamengo is the only one that I know pulling this information together and recovering lost history. As I mentioned in the discussion, I was given total disinfo by the guide at Seneca Falls (claiming that a woman in 1848 — at the time of the Seneca convention — did not even own her clothing if she divorced). The bald lie is that the Married Women’s Property Protection Act was passed into law in April 1848 and the convention was in July.

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